Holistic Yoga, Ashrams & Gurus with Meghan Kemp

My podcast guest this week is Meghan Kemp, a dedicated student and teacher of yoga, who is integrating eastern practices into western culture (which is why I was so excited to talk to her). She has been practicing yoga since she was 14 and teaching asana, meditation, breathwork and kriya for the past five years. Following a year of living, studying and teaching at an ashram in northern India, Meghan has returned to the States to share these transformational practices with all walks of life. She is also a budding Vedic Astrologer and offers astrology readings as a means to alleviate suffering and increase joy.

Our conversation spanned a broad spectrum of topics, all orbiting around the broad and rich practices of yoga, from the elements that make up a holistic yoga practice, to ashram life and the role of a guru on the spiritual path, to cults, to the question of enlightenment, to Vedic astrology.

In this surreal liminal space after quarantine here in New York, it was wonderful to be able to do this interview with Meghan in-person instead of online! One of my mics failed half way through recording. Thankfully I had 2 backups. But this is why the audio quality fluctuates a bit in two places. Podcasting. It’s a journey of learning on all sides.

The path of enlightenment is the toughest path, and that seeking is the hardest task. — Swami Rama

The spiritual path teaches us how to float on our backs, relaxed and aware, in the waters of reality. — Elizabeth Lesser

• Swami Rama's book Living with the Himalayan Masters

• Mariana Caplan's wonderful The Guru Question

• A list of resources for helping India during the pandemic

How to find Meghan: Web + Instagram

Topics

1. Spiritual Path: Challenging or Easy?

2. What Is Yoga?

3. The State, Practice, and Experience of Yoga

4. Bhakti Yoga: The Path of Heart

5. Life Is a Spiral

6. Jñāna Yoga

7. How To Evaluate A Guru

8. Finding a Wise Teacher

9. Do You Need a Teacher?

10. Teachers Are Human Too

11. Teacher Hopping

12. Teacher Selection Criteria

13. The Importance of Lineage

14. Needing Someone To Believe In You

15. It's Important to Leave the Ashram

16. Following Your Own Inner Light

17. What Is Enlightenment?

18. Escaping the Cycle of Birth & Death

19. Everything Is Very Real & An Illusion At the Same Time

20. Jyotish / Vedic Astrology

Show Transcript

Meghan Kemp 0:00

This life is an opportunity to move beyond our karma and move into a more dharmic state of living and living life with great intention and purpose and mastery, and to essentially be of greater service and ease to all and this is universal. And so to be able to share this insight with other people and to help them see life from that broader context is it's just a blessing. This is all an illusion. Okay, like hit me in the face. Yeah.

Chad Woodford 0:40

Welcome to Spiritual But Not Ridiculous, a podcast that explores the world of spirituality. From a grounded and clear eyed perspective. I'm your host, Jayadev: yoga teacher, Vedic astrologer, attorney, and technologist.

My guest this week is Meghan Kemp, a dedicated student and teacher of yoga, who is integrating Eastern practices into Western culture, which is why I was so excited to talk to her. She's been practicing yoga since she was 14. And teaching asana, meditation, breathwork, and kriya for the past five years. Following a year of living, studying and teaching at an ashram in northern India. Meghan has returned to the States to share these transformational practices with all walks of life. She is also a budding Vedic astrologer and offers astrology readings as a means to alleviate suffering and increase joy. Our conversation spanned a wide spectrum of topics all orbiting around the broad and rich practices of yoga, from the elements that make up a holistic yoga practice to ashram life and the role of a guru on the spiritual path to cults to the question of enlightenment, and Vedic Astrology. It was so great to do this interview in person instead of over zoom. So here's my conversation with Meghan.

So welcome, Meghan. I'm so happy that you're my first guest on the podcast.

Meghan Kemp 2:15

Thanks, Chad. I'm excited to be here.

Chad Woodford 2:17

Yeah, we we go back a little ways. We've known each other for about four years.

Meghan Kemp 2:22

Yeah, I guess 2017?

Chad Woodford 2:24

Yeah. And we're kind of we've been kind of following the same path or similar path for that time. So yeah, I met you four years ago in India at this yoga academy, where I was taking a mantra training with Kia Miller. And you were there for a while...

Meghan Kemp 2:41

Yeah, I was following Kia there, but I wasn't there for that specific training.

Chad Woodford 2:44

Right. Yeah. You were there to just be that, like there was a summit, a yoga summit happening. It was at Sattva Yoga Academy.

Meghan Kemp 2:51

Yeah. Yeah, I did that. Because it was the first time they had done it. I had no context of what was going to happen there. And I just saw the intro video, and it showed the Himalayas and I said, I'm going.

Chad Woodford 3:02

Right, right. Because you're a fan of like, the Himalayas basically.

Meghan Kemp 3:06

Yeah, I'm into that, yeah.

Chad Woodford 3:08

Yeah. It's beautiful out there. Yeah. I think for people like us, it's been, you know, hard not to go to India, or to be able to go to India during this time. But at the same time, that's obviously such a privileged problem to have, and people are really suffering. And so it's been heartbreaking to see the suffering in India.

Meghan Kemp 3:26

Yeah, definitely, especially in those more rural communities without as much access to resources, but also cool to see how people are able to support from afar and how we're still able to be held by India, and hopefully hold India in our hearts as well.

Chad Woodford 3:42

Yeah. So great. So many people we know, in our community have been putting up these fundraisers, and really all of us have been doing different things to give back to the community and to India as a whole. So maybe I'll link to some of that stuff in the show notes or something. I wanted to have you on because I wanted to talk about yoga, and some of the experiences we've had, and maybe some of the challenges that come with the spiritual path. And also, because the theme of this podcast, as you know, is to try to find the veins of gold within what can seem like, you know, a lot of spiritual ego or, you know, commercialization or whatever it is, like, corruption of spirituality, you know, so that's the kind of the theme of every episode. And so that's part of it, part of the conversation we're gonna have today...

Meghan Kemp 4:36

Right?

Chad Woodford 4:37

Yeah. So yeah, so we both have studied the same style of yoga. We both have had similar experiences, living in kind of an ashram setting and yeah, studying with people in India and all that so excited to get into that topic.

Meghan Kemp 4:53

Yeah, me too.

Chad Woodford 4:57

So I wanted to start with a question about the spiritual path. There's these two quotes that I have that kind of tee up what seems like a dichotomy. So one quote was from Swami Rama, a book that we both read. And he says, the path of enlightenment is the toughest path. And that seeking is the hardest task. So that's one perspective. And then Elizabeth Lesser, the founder of Omega Institute, she says, the spiritual path teaches us how to float on our backs, relaxed and aware in the waters of reality. So it's like two different perspectives.

Meghan Kemp 5:37

Very polarizing!

Chad Woodford 5:39

And, you know, I mean, I've definitely felt personally, that it is a hard path, because it, you know, for one reason, and I'm curious to hear your thoughts, like, you're maybe more alienated from other people, or you're just, like, feeling different from society, let's say, I don't know, what's your perspective?

Meghan Kemp 5:55

Yeah, it's funny. At this stage, I feel more connected to humanity than I've ever felt, and also more isolated from humanity than ever, it gives you this access to your heart space, and seeing how we're all on a spiritual path, regardless if we're tapping into certain practices or resources. And then as we start to dive into that path, you uncover so much of yourself, and what you want to create for your life. And in that process, there's a lot of letting go of that which isn't aligned with the path or not in line with your highest intentions.

Chad Woodford 6:37

Yeah, it takes a lot of courage or a lot of willingness to be sort of independent and break away from conditioned society or conditioned expectations about how you should live your life.

Meghan Kemp 6:51

Yeah, definitely. But I think it's beautiful to see over time how people understand that that's the path you're on. And they, I now get a call from my mom. And she's like, Where in the world? Are you? Like, great, this is a huge leap from where it was when I first decided to go traveling and be nomadic. And her wanting to know what my every step and move and it's, it's freeing and a lot of ways, but it is also yeah, it requires a sort of grit and, and determination to be on the path. But I think once you start to sip in that awareness, it's really hard to let go, you start to lift the veil.

Chad Woodford 7:31

Yeah. And I think in terms of the difficulty, in my experience, there's kind of a dance, right? You there's aspects that are challenging. And of course, there's this concept in yoga that I'm sure a lot of listeners are familiar with, which is tapaha, you know, you're intentionally doing something hard, or, you know, committing to some, you know, discipline over a set period of time in order to achieve some spiritual benefit, or you know, some punya, or whatever you want to call it. And so there's this kind of push and pull where you're doing these practices that are hard or you're doing you're on a path that's difficult in some cases, but then hopefully, you get some benefits. So you experience the benefits of that of doing that. Yeah. And so that's, like self-reinforcing. So there's like a nice feedback cycle, hopefully.

Meghan Kemp 8:15

Definitely. Yeah. And I think it's fair to say that people will step away from the path because it is challenging, and then come back to it over time. And generally, people are propelled onto it when something life changing when the when the rug is pulled out from beneath them, and they then have to look at aspects of their life that they might not have been engaging with before. Yeah. So it's an invitation always open door. But yeah, there's some of us that when we open that door, a lot of us can't close it going and going.

Chad Woodford 8:46

Yeah, yeah. And it's interesting what you say about, like, what might draw you to the path or like, so often it's be having something like, quote unquote, go wrong in your life or something that quote unquote, bad happened, you know, that's usually when you're more open to maybe going on the path. And yeah, so that's such a great reminder that the way grace operates is through these seemingly sort of like bed, you know, yeah, dance or whatever. Okay. Well, does that answer the question? Is it hard? Or is it easy?

Meghan Kemp 9:24

It's a little bit of it's a little bit of both. I think, you know, at this stage, I can't imagine my life without meditation without a daily practice. But a few years back, it would be really hard for me to think, how am I going to meditate every day for the rest of my life. And I don't plan in that same context. I don't think about what I'm doing today has to happen every single day. It's just becomes such a foundational principle of my life that my life organizes around it, and in that more blossoms from him, and whenever those lessons present themselves, there's These resources and tools that we've gained through the path are three practices to fall back on. So life still happens life so hard regardless, but at least this gives you some parameters to sort through it.

Chad Woodford 10:15

Yeah. And I think maybe the ease part of the ease that Elizabeth Lesser's talking about is like your approach, if you are not trying to control everything, and you're not having any expectations, that maybe it's a little easier, and you can kind of eventually or quickly get to a point where you're like, floating in some sense. Yeah, you know, and you're like, you're saying you're kind of you build a foundation of practices that do that do then like, sort of pave the road a little bit, I think, but then still, there's going to be there's going to be fluctuation where you like backslide, or, you know, two steps forward, one step back.

Meghan Kemp 10:47

No, we never go back.

Chad Woodford 10:49

There's no going, you know, like this fluctuation, like my friend, good friend of mine says, "fluctuation happens." And yeah, it's just a fact of the path. And you have to I think you have to be very good to go easy on yourself and have a lot of compassion. Yeah. And not be so serious. Yeah.

Meghan Kemp 11:05

Or ridiculous.

Chad Woodford 11:09

So yeah, okay. Well, I think we answered that question. Yeah. Great. So yeah, so I wanted to talk more broadly about yoga too, because, for me recently, this summer, especially in the past few months, as we've talked about, before we started taping, I've been going through this process, where some of the practices that I've been doing for years have been falling away in my personal practice, and then I've maybe adopted other practices or like, it's like my view of yoga has broadened, or my view of the spiritual paths broadened, beyond maybe even like, maybe it's not just yoga for me, you know, that's what I'm kind of thinking about these days. And so I wanted to talk about like, sort of what is yoga? Where does it fit in with the broader, like, spiritual path? If you know, you want to if you want to embark on a spiritual path, you know, what is yoga part of that? how can how can I fit into all that? What else can you do? But so I wanted to start the discussion with talking about what yoga is, because I feel like it's kind of important these days, especially to kind of define it or to like, talk about it in a more expansive way. Yes. So many people still, I think, think of yoga as the postures where you're just stretching, which is great. Asana is amazing, and very important. But there's so much more to it. So I mean, this is kind of a big question about like, how do you define yoga? Somebody? Like you, somebody you didn't know, ask you? Yeah, what's yoga? You know, you teach yoga?

Meghan Kemp 12:32

Yeah. Great question. So I think about my experience in this way, I started yoga, at a young age, doing asanas or the postures, my soul was really drawn to it. For the purpose of savasana. Really, it was the allure of that resting peacefulness that happened at the end of the postures. And that experience kept me curious, it had me searching or seeking out more and looking to discover more of what was happening beneath the surface there, that experience was yoga that that was the unity between the mind the body, the moment the breath, like all of it coming together and not feeling any sort of disconnect, or dis ease that there's just this being and, and there's so many ways to access that space, and to then broaden the experience of that space. And so yoga from a wider lens includes practices, studies, texts, all of the above. Meditation, you know, there's so many systems to help us organize ourselves in order to experience that unity consciousness or cosmic consciousness and see how it's all interconnected. Yoga, meaning to unite, or to yoke to unify all into one. And yeah, so I, I think that it's amazing that so many people are practicing assets right now, because we have to prepare the body to then hold the posture, we can sit and stillness and access those places of transcendence through practices like meditation or breath, work, breath work and meditation concentration, and then we open up the veil and can see how nature is.

Chad Woodford 14:32

Yeah. Beautiful, beautiful answer. Hey, yeah, so yoga is it's a practice. Well, one of our teachers would say it's a state, a practice, and an experience. But it's a practice for helping you to have the direct experience of unity. Yes. unity with what are between what and what?

Meghan Kemp 14:53

Well, what I would call God now, I was never someone who use the G word but I love to think of it as the generator, organizer and destroyer, God and universe, nature, whatever it is, it's something that's much larger than this experience of my own consciousness. So it's the consciousness of all collective consciousness and the cosmic consciousness, the, the inner woven space that we exist in in time that we exist in and seeing our role in it from a way wider lens, wider bandwidth.

Chad Woodford 15:30

Yeah. Yeah, that's, that's really, I mean, I think one thing that people don't realize, and that's why I think, like you were saying a minute ago, especially like asana, and even power yoga, or whatever, is important, because it's such a nice, approachable sort of gateway, you know, practice where people just come into, and it's simple and accessible. And you're, you feel like you're working out and you're working out and yeah, so like, I mean, I'm sure for you like, for me, I started off with Bikram, and I thought it was the best thing ever.

Meghan Kemp 16:01

I started with Bikram too!

Chad Woodford 16:03

It's so important, I think in every so every style of yoga is good, because if you stick with it, it will lead you closer, closer to like the truth, whatever that is. But yeah, you know, it's like a progression. So you can't really realistically, like dump people into the deep end, right off the bat. Like I think about, we'll get into this later, I'm sure. But like, you know, eventually the experiences that you and I were having in India, if you just did that, like right away, you'd be like, this is weird. Crazy, right? So it's like, you can't it's almost like you can't tell people like everything right away. But yeah, so you can say, you know, at the beginning, you can say, Oh, it's a unity between your body and mind. Are you right between you and like, you start to throw in like totality or these other words, but yeah, ultimately, it's unity that you can experience the unity between your small self and your higher self, or, yeah, between Atman and Brahman or whatever. Yeah. So. So yeah. It's amazing, because I think I had the same experience you had my first real taste of unity or transcendence was intro asana in a vinyasa class in San Francisco. At Toga Tree, which is I think closed now. Yeah. And yeah. And I just wanted more of that. And so that was kind of what pushed me into a teacher training. I just wanted the I wanted to find that experience more consistently. And so what's beautiful about the more like energetic practices like kriya, or pranayama, or those things, is that they give you that direct experience more consistently, in my experience, right?

Unknown Speaker 17:36

And rapidly too. rapidly.

Chad Woodford 17:36

And rapidly, yeah. Not that there's any hurry.

Meghan Kemp 17:39

No, no. Many lifetimes.

Chad Woodford 17:42

I mean, it's something I do want to talk about, too, is. Yeah, like the purpose of practicing when you're already perfect. Yeah, but maybe we can come back to that. But you know, so asana is important in the beginning, right?

Meghan Kemp 18:00

Asana is important, in my perspective, where I'm sitting right now, always is and it doesn't have to be like a sun salutation. As far as asana goes, or 100 of them. I think the connection of yourself to your body is so vital for an integrated being and an integrated experience of yoga. I come from a background where I was initially drawn to alignment and wanting to discover more and truth through alignment. And over time, I've definitely dropped that. Like, I think alignment is a great tool for teaching. But it's easy to get caught in that because it's a level of perfectionism. But point aside...

Chad Woodford 18:44

But it's important to have, well also to have a knowledge at least have like some some boundaries or some like guidelines for not injuring yourself. So definitely, you should at least know enough to not do certain things where you're going to jeopardize your knee or ankle or what have you.

Meghan Kemp 19:01

Definitely, yeah, but I think that often it strengthens your core your spine as well. So it allows there to be a transference of energy and the more subtle means of your body, which then gives you access to those spaces with greater ease and longevity. Because if you're in pain seated in meditation for 20 minutes, it's going to be quite distracting. But asanas are wonderful for alleviating that pain and strain and helping your body with longevity too.

Chad Woodford 19:29

Yeah, absolutely. And I you know, and for me, if you're gonna approach yoga from an elemental standpoint, or thinking about the importance of grounding, you know, in the earth element, you know, the style I teach is very much oriented around elements. And I think yoga itself, since ancient times has been organized around the elements to some degree and yeah, so it's important to asana is giving you this grounding this like, you're going you're being, you're bringing your awareness more into your body. You know, I think Iyengar said that you should bring your awareness to every cell of your body when you're doing a pose or something.

Meghan Kemp 20:04

There's a lot in that question was, what else? Are we not touching on yet?

Chad Woodford 20:08

In terms of what yoga is? Yeah. Let's take the discussion maybe a little bit broader beyond even like physical practices, because yoga can be so much more than that. Right? So there's like bhakti yoga. There's jñāna yoga, which is sort of more of that wisdom and tracking the intellect and all that. And what else Karma Yoga? Right. Also Raja, which includes meditation? Yeah, we're talking about the yoga is there any greater than the Bhagavad Gita? Right? Yes. So yeah, so bhakti yoga, I think most people know about, at least with know about the Hare Krishnas, so there's like, kind of devotional style, but it's so much more than just Hare Krishna?

Meghan Kemp 20:45

Yeah, definitely. It's a, it's a real great pathway to the heart, and using the heart as leverage to those spaces of transcendence.

Chad Woodford 20:55

Absolutely. I think. I'm curious to hear what you think. I mean, I feel like most people are a lot of people when you say devotion, it makes me be turns them off even I don't know, like, it sounds. To me, it might sound a little bit of somebody who maybe comes from Christianity or something. Yeah. Well, it's like, it might sound a little bit like religion or, I don't know, loss of control, or, you know, like, how do you think about devotion?

Meghan Kemp 21:17

Yeah, great question. Because I did not understand that word. When I first started to, like, do these practices that we've explored, it brings when, when the benefit was it brings you into a devotional space? I was like, What do you mean? Like, I don't understand what I'm being devoted to.

Chad Woodford 21:36

But I like well, a good example like is, this is a small example. But I feel like a lot of people I've noticed when they go to a class, and there's a sort of tradition, even in a yoga studio, and you know, New York, there's a tradition where at the end of the class, everyone bows, the practice, and some people are like, wait a minute, everyone's bowing to the teacher, like, what is this a call? You know, like, yeah, that kind of stuff I think people get confused about...

Meghan Kemp 22:00

Totally, yeah. But I think when you start to experience nature, nature, to me has been the conduit to what devotion is, and being out and immerse in nature and natural elements. It brings alive the mystery of life and that perspective. And you start to see the organization at play of what had to come into fruition to be here in this moment and take it all in. And through that awareness, then I had something to vow towards and to be grateful for that. So much had to align that was out of my wherewithal and knowledge and yeah, and, and that's where, like, the god word comes into play. But it, it is, it's tricky, because there's been such conditioning in the society around what God is, or the imagery around it.

Chad Woodford 22:54

Like it's like, like Pete Holmes says, like, he's the Burger King in the sky or whatever. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I think devotion, I think in the beginning, you can kind of say that it's just devotion to yourself, or to your higher self. And then you can say it's devotion to something higher than that, you know, maybe totality or God or whatever, the divine The Goddess. But I think it is also one other way to look at it as it's like, a way of just opening yourself spiritually or like, like cultivating receptivity within yourself. And there's also an element, would you say, there's also an element of surrender to devotion? Is that part of it? Or is that different?

Meghan Kemp 23:34

Definitely, definitely connected. Because I think when we have all these points of resistance come up around a word like devotion, or God or religion, there is a gripping to an identity that's associated with that knowledge. And so to be able to surrender the belief system or structures that we've been taught, and be open to something else, or be open to just uncovering what it is within us that has us asking these questions. Who am I? What is this all about? What's the purpose of all? Yes? Yeah, from there, I can start to get into that heart space.

Chad Woodford 24:09

Yeah. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. So. So that's bhakti yoga, that's devotional yoga, karma yoga course you can be of selfless service in the world. It's a different ways. That's another form of yoga. And then yeah, jñāna yoga. I think we'll talk about that more probably, as we get into talking about spiritual bypass and gurus and all that stuff. Well, yeah, there's so much more to yoga than just asana.

Meghan Kemp 24:35

They're really a loaded question.

Chad Woodford 24:37

But something I've been thinking about because I've noticed with myself, I go through these these cycles where, because I feel like I've been toying with this idea over the past few years that life is like a spiral. So for me, at least in my experience, like it feels like the way life operates is that you kind of come around through an experience or like a practice or belief and then you kind of go around like the spiral maybe away from it a little bit, and then back to it in a deeper way. It's been my experience anyway. So like I personally, I had these cycles where I'm practicing really diligently and a lot, like every day, twice a day or whatever, you know, different yoga practices. And then I'll have periods where I'm sort of taking a break from it, and reorienting myself and kind of examining from the outside and all these things. So it's something that I think about a lot like, what is yoga? And if I'm taking a quote, unquote, break from yoga, is that really a break from yoga? Or am I just not doing maybe asana or kriya, but I'm doing jñāna yoga, or karma yoga or bhakti yoga or whatever, right? So maybe at some point, the I'm sure everyone's heard the cliche, everything's yoga, you know. And so at some point, maybe like, your approach to things can be yogic, and whatever you do, can have the sort of the community views with a certain kind of yoga, you know, viewpoint?

Meghan Kemp 25:58

Yeah. Because how it'd be difficult to say that you're not practicing when you have so much experience with the practice that has shifted you into the person you are today, and the way that you engage with life. And so I think once the yogi always a yogi or something like that, depending on you'd like that identity.

Chad Woodford 26:19

Yeah. Well, I like what you're saying, because it makes me think of jñāna yoga, which is this, correcting the intellect wisdom, what you're saying reminds me about the experiences I've had, especially in satsangs in India, with our teacher or other teachers, where I'll be sitting there just hearing talk by a teacher, and I'll feel my consciousness expanding just from that talk. And so, so what you're saying reminds me of that experience, where I feel like I leave that talk or leave that experience with a permanently altered consciousness. And so then in all my, in my, in my life, after that, I'm sort of applying that increased wisdom or that different orientation and everything, hopefully. And so I think, for me, like especially the past three or four years, this jñāna yoga has been maybe the most important practice in a certain sense, because it ties directly back to the theme of this podcast in a way because, you know, I'm very much concerned with spiritual bypass, spiritual ego, spiritual materialism, and, you know, the over commercialization of of yoga and all that. And I think I think that the, the most effective solution to all those things is jñāna yoga, or like, you know, going to wisdom talks or reading yoga scriptures, or whatever it is. And so yeah, so I think I'm curious to hear your thoughts like, have you had that experience with satsangs, I should say satsangs are just like a talk where there's a teacher talking, basically, sometimes it's a lecture or sometimes it's a q&a, but a Dharma talk is another name for satsang that's more common in the West. So anyways, yeah, have you had that experience with wisdom talks?

Meghan Kemp 28:06

Yes, I have had that experience. But I will say that I think it's really unique to you and your path as well. And that there's so many different paths. So you kind of circle back to what we had to address. And it makes so much sense that you are putting energy into this work and into enlivening your consciousness, and then sharing it through the same ways that you've felt you've learned the most, and by talking and, and discussing and reading, and that has definitely been relevant for me. And I've, but I've felt that through what we call journeys, I have my consciousness expanded, like, Yeah, but but ultimately, during those journeys, there is a restructuring of the framework of ideas and like, what, how to approach life and how to engage in it in those moments. So it's, it's all part of a bigger picture. So I think that yes, there there needs to be some way for people to access different perspectives in order for them to widen their consciousness or broaden

Chad Woodford 29:20

Yeah. And I think maybe talking about a satsang as separate from a journey or a class or whatever, is a little bit of an artificial distinction. Because so often in a good class, hopefully the teacher is dropping in little bits of wisdom. I mean, some of the best classes from my favorite teachers have been those teachers, right. There's like wisdom coming in, like as you're doing awesome, or whatever you're doing, right. So, so yeah, it's a continuum too. And yeah, but you're right. And it's funny because I, I've always been such a sort of reader and an intellectual and you know, very much in my head. And so when I first encountered yoga and I found out about jñāna yoga, I was like, I shouldn't do that, because I feel like it's feeding this like, oversized tendency of mine to be in my head. And I should just do I should be more than the body practices, you know. But you're right, though. I mean, it's a it's a sort of natural aptitude or it's a natural tendency I have, and I enjoy it. So why not? There's no reason to resist. But yeah, it's so important. I feel, um, sometimes to directly correct people's like, conditioned thinking or misperception of reality, you know...

Meghan Kemp 30:29

They have to be open to that, to have honest inquiry.

Chad Woodford 30:32

Yeah. And so it feels like such a, like, I feel like such a refined kind of elevated, almost inaccessible thing, experience for people to have, because at least you know, the way I've encountered it, for the most part has been, yeah, having to travel to India, find some teacher, you know, like, not everybody's gonna have access to that experience.

Meghan Kemp 30:52

However, if you look at this past year, right, how many people who would have never gone to India were able to take courses drew from their home? And I mean, we have all of these resources online? Yes. There's almost like, so many options. And how do you discern, I think that's a big, big thing to be mindful of as you go deeper into these practices is the discernment qualities and factors. And but then there's this thread of truth through it all. And you go from one school to another, and you're like, oh, they've just applied similar words, or slightly different words to the same structure foundation. But yeah, it's, it takes worthy inquiry. And then when you have that, you'll get the answers. You'll be guided naturally.

Chad Woodford 31:40

Yeah, that's right. The challenge for people who are offering wisdom talks or Dharma talks, I think sometimes is that other people who may be interested in those things are turned off by the fact that they don't fit the kind of old, you know, sage on a mountaintop, archetype. So there's a little bit of a resistance sometimes to that.

Meghan Kemp 32:14

Yeah. And I think that's where if you're looking for someone to learn from it, there's so many different types of teachers out there, and it takes trying them on, and seeing which ones do resonate with you, and accepting what does feel like truth to you, and then leaving the rest. And perhaps you find that teacher, what whatever body suit they are wearing, can be a conduit for that information. Some of my wisest friends, or like people in my life are like, way younger than me, and have such a profound like intuition. And, and so yeah, I think it does, it does require allowing that conditioned expectation to go and to drop and to be open to receiving wisdom from all the traditions and different teachers.

Chad Woodford 33:11

So how do you—let me ask you this? How do you find a teacher that's right for you? How do you find your like your teacher, if that's the thing you're looking for?

Meghan Kemp 33:20

For me? Personally, I and I can't speak on behalf of everybody. But for me, I just kept going to my favorite teachers from an Asana perspective, I loved how one teacher sequence that was unique, it was different. said, Who's your teacher? Then I went to their I did a retreat with her teacher. And then I said, Okay, well, who is your teacher, and then went to the next. Then from that, I think the fourth stage of it was what brought me to India. And now I'm in a position where I feel like I have access to someone who has great wisdom, and I can impart that and and learn it, live it, and then start to teach it as well as I embody it.

Chad Woodford 34:05

So you have to go to India to find a teacher?

Meghan Kemp 34:09

But I think that you can find teachers wherever but you, you know what sounds true to you and what doesn't? And that's what ignite... or for me, at least I felt that these people ignited something in me and I wanted to understand more.

Chad Woodford 34:25

Yeah, I think but I think you're highlighting what can be a little bit of like a catch 22 or like a chicken and egg problem on the path because to identify a sadhguru, like a true teacher, you need discernment on some level. Yeah, to be able to like separate the wheat from the chaff. And that's something that you develop by having a teacher so it's a little bit of like, you have to have a little bit and then you get more from the teacher and then it's really good, then it's like an ever increasing process from there.

Meghan Kemp 34:52

Yeah, definitely. And, I mean, we talked about this in the Guru... or we read about this in The Guru Question, a book that we both read. And you can see the community that a teacher has. And if you like what you're seeing in that community, then it's generally a good indication that that teachers aligned with you.

Chad Woodford 35:14

Hmm, yeah, that's a good one. I'm all of a sudden thinking about Ram Dass's experience meeting his teacher, which is totally unique. You know, the story? Yeah. Yeah. It's such a great story. Yeah. I mean, I'll tell it, maybe won't use it. I don't know. But it's such a great story. Because he goes, I mean, he found basically was all wrapped up. I mean, I'm sure everyone knows this story. But what Ram Das did is he met Bhagavan Das, who was whose name I forget his like American name, I forget. But from Laguna Beach, California, he was in India. And he seemed to have some things special. And this is where an example of Ram Dass is using his sort of intuition and his like discernment maybe to identify Bhagavan Das is somebody who maybe has some knowledge and wisdom. And then you followed him to this ashram in the mountains, where Neem Karoli Baba was the guru. And at the time, Ram Dass was still Richard Alpert, and he was still very much in his identity, like as a Harvard professor and psychologist of skepticism and everything is, you know, I don't know about this. I don't know about that. And even though he was in India, and he was sort of partially surrendering to Bhagavan Das, he goes to this thing and everybody is dressed, you know, dressed in white, and they're all sort of bowing to Neem Karoli Baba and he's like, No, this is not for me at all. touching his feet, she does feel guilty or whatever. But then, a few months earlier, Ram Dass, his mother had died. And he hadn't told anybody about that very much about that experience, especially Bhagavan Das or anybody in India. And then he had this really beautiful experience where he was out one night before they met the Baba, he was out under the stars and, and he was just really feeling connected to everything and thinking about his mother for the first time in a deep way since she died. And so he goes, and I think Neem Karoli Baba really saw. I mean, you know, the story you can jump into?

Meghan Kemp 37:11

Yeah, yeah, the following day. I think Ram Dass was going to leave or something. And he, he was pulled into talking to Neem Karoli Baba, and he asked if he had seen his mother the night before. He was thinking about his mother.

Chad Woodford 37:26

He said something like, "You were thinking about your mother last night."

Meghan Kemp 37:29

Right? Right. And she died of like kidney.

Chad Woodford 37:32

Right. He knew how she died. Yeah.

Meghan Kemp 37:35

And he just lost it. "Whatever this man is doing. I'm in."

Chad Woodford 37:41

Yeah, that's a pretty unique experience. Yeah, but yeah. Yeah, I mean, like, well, maybe we should go back a little bit for so I mean, do you think you need does a person on a spiritual path need a guru or like a?

Meghan Kemp 37:53

Well, we all have the answers within,

Chad Woodford 37:56

Cuz you hear these stories, like, you know, Ramana Maharshi, didn't have a teacher or Sadhguru, you know, is famous because he doesn't he never had a teacher or lineage. He just is self-taught, you know? And I think a lot I think a lot of people like that. Because it I think the downside, people's minds about having a guru or especially a lineage is that there's such a high risk that it could, you could find out, there's like some scandal or something. humaneness and then the whole thing gets taken down or whatever. And so if there's no teacher, then like, oh, you're there's no risk of this, you know, let's call it having a call or being you know, tricked or duped or whatever. Right? So, so yes, you do need a teacher?

Meghan Kemp 38:42

It's all a process of remembering what's true. Technically, no, you don't, some people don't. And, but you can get further along in your path. If you have the sage wisdom of someone that is a teacher. I mean, if you think about any profession, any scholars like schooling, we all have, essentially, people that help us see our potential greater than we could see within ourself, and push us in that direction and not just forward faster than we would because we oftentimes have fear or resistance to that capacity within us. So having a teacher, a spiritual teacher, gives us those little nudges forward on the path, can call out the things that we're struggling with, with greater ease. They give us that, that perspective, that is sometimes hard to see for ourselves if we don't have these tools embedded already. Absolutely.

Chad Woodford 39:44

Yeah, I think there's a guru principle there's a sort of a teacher principle, I think running all through nature. You could say that—I think that's actually a line from the Guru Gita. If you've read that, but um, but yeah, there's this guru principle and I think teachers Just embodying that principle. And I think it's so essential, especially for people in the modern world who don't have much self awareness, to have somebody who can serve that role of maybe helping them to break out of their ego a little bit, or to loosen up some of their attachments a little bit. And to help them to see more clearly, the places where they're not aware, or they're like, yeah, they're self sabotaging or whatever. And I think there's a real benefit to that. And yeah, I personally have benefited immensely from having a teacher and to going through the traditional kind of surrender to a teacher process and see where that leads, that's, it's been very beneficial to me how, you know, I think it did help me to, to learn to surrender more and to, like, get out of my own way, a little a lot. And like I was saying before, the huge benefit was, I mean, learning practices, advanced practices, but also, just being in these talks where a lot of my misconceptions about reality or about myself or about nature, were being directed by this teacher, and it was somebody who had demonstrated, I mean, I discovered this one teacher, because he had come to a training I was in and given a talk. And I could just see, I could just hear that he was speaking truth. And everything he was saying resonated with me. And it just seemed to have such deep wisdom. And he's very knowledgeable and very wise. And so there was a certain level of trust that I was able to give because of that experience, and then deepening that trust and deepening the sort of trust in Him to be my teacher for you know, for a period anyways, was was hugely transformational for me.

Meghan Kemp 41:44

Do you have one shining example of that?

Chad Woodford 41:47

Yeah. So now you're the podcast host?

Meghan Kemp 41:49

Yeah, I told you this was gonna happen. I love it.

Chad Woodford 41:54

Yeah, I'll say there was a real benefit to the experience of living in community in India, in kind of an ashram setting, where there were a number of ways in which I had to get over myself, like living in a tiny room that was cold and didn't have any heat and was kind of depressing, you know, there was a benefit, I think, to having the experience and then getting over it. And moving past it, you know, and especially coming from the west where I had a, you know, a good career, and I was living in nice places. That, yeah, it's a real ego trip to be in a space where you're, it feels like you're starting over, you know, and just trust them to that process. And that was gonna lead somewhere. And that was an example where I did actually kind of freak out. And I was, I was actually planning to escape to a five star hotel in Delhi, and never go back. And, you know, I had a talk with and on, and he helped me to see and put like, a different perspective on it, and to remember why I was there, and the benefits I was getting and all that, you know, so that's one example, you know, sort of entering into severe ego trip, and then having it having almost like the, it's like, almost like the ego trip is like this boil. And then your teachers like lancing the boil, and it's like, You're healed? Yeah, what about you have you had a specific experience that you want to share?

Meghan Kemp 43:24

I was told to be mindful of the secret complaints with my heart. So nice. And to me, that felt like I was being seen, this is also through an and in a way that I don't even see myself. Like, when it was brought to light, I could then see, oh, that's where I have work to do. And then within that conversation, I asked Well, how how do I how do I manage these secret complaints that have apparently been with me forever? Because I'm feels true. And the answer with devotion and devotional practices to cut to my heart, and to I major takeaway was to not get caught up in the smallness of things, addictive behaviors or tendencies, fears, attachment to a life that did have a lot of suffering within it, to be able to be grateful for those experiences, and then to move forward with different prioritizations such as having devotional acts as a daily practice for me.

Chad Woodford 44:33

Yeah, yeah. Thinking of another example where I was living in community in India at the Academy. And I had an experience where I felt very much like somebody needed to apologize to me. And I went to actually went to our teacher and I said, "When is it appropriate to expect an apology from somebody?" He said, "Never!" Yeah, that's true. Though, yeah, simple example this stuff like that, you know where you're just like, going around with this, it's like the teacher is helping you to stop playing around with this small idea of yourself and to be a bigger idea of yourself a more elevated idea, more of a natural leader type, somebody who's not trapped in what you could call like sub personalities, like The Wounded Child, or The Victim, or The Escapist, or all these things that you need these ways that you have a protecting your ego, basically, especially when you're your child, that are still lingering as your as you become an adult, I think the teacher can help you to become aware of those defense mechanisms, and then to find different ways to move through them.

Meghan Kemp 45:43

Definitely. Yeah, and I also have thought of one other great example too, on a more like gross level of just being pushed into uncomfortable like, situations or teachings, you know, of being prompted to do things that I would never ask in terms of like a teacher training, and, okay, now you're going to go teach a class in 10 minutes, completely off the cuff for students who have been practicing for years because they're there for a training. So you go teach them now? In 10 minutes, yeah, I've had that experience. And you're just like, me? Yeah, wait, what? And so you have to just drop everything that you think you need to do for me, it's a lot of planning and, you know, getting the playlist getting the sequence all of that and be able to just learn to be in that moment, even more and yeah, it's just, it's, it's great. When, when you have people in your life like teachers to propel you forward.

Chad Woodford 46:39

Yeah. To see your potential, your potential...

Meghan Kemp 46:42

Yes, to be able to see Yeah, you know, way wider way than before.

Chad Woodford 46:47

Yeah, yeah. When I showed up, one year, when I showed up at the Academy, I was there for a certain purpose. And then the day I arrived, Anand said, actually, you're going to be teaching, you're gonna be training the teachers in the training instead. And I was like, Oh, and I didn't ever think of myself as having that, like, I'd been at that point. I had been teaching for years and had already done multiple trainings. So I definitely had I've done probably like five trainings at that point. But I had never thought of myself as like, qualified, you know, and he saw that potential. And I think, you know, hopefully he was, I think he was right, but who knows? Yeah, but that kept happening. And he kept expecting more and more of me. And I, he kept pushing me into areas of discomfort that really helped me grow as a result.

Meghan Kemp 47:30

Yeah. And I think it's great to have a teacher that does that. And that you can also, at some point, understand that it was done in love, yes, that that that push wasn't done to make you uncomfortable in a negative way, it was done to help you get past that old version of yourself.

Chad Woodford 47:50

So this brings us to a discussion around gurus and the imperfection of human beings, and how to grapple with maybe like some disappointments around a teacher, or that kind of thing. Kind of separating the human being from the teachings. And, and that, you know, I think some people may be in a situation where there's a teacher who does have wisdom and is imparting important practices and knowledge, but then is too much in his ego or her you go and then manipulating students, you know, and saying that I'm actually breaking down your ego, when they're what they're actually doing is manipulating them or doing something unhealthy, right? We've seen that in so many cult documentaries, you know, that kind of behavior with whether it was you know, Osho, and all that and Wild, Wild West or Country? Yeah. But yeah, so many examples of that, where it, it can be tricky, I guess, because so much of what amounts to unhealthy manipulation, can be packaged like, Oh, I'm just helping you break down your ego, totally thinking of like the NXIVM cult to that was like so much of what Keith Raniere was doing in that. So anyways, I'm just curious if you have thoughts about the humaneness of a teacher, you know, because I think we've all experienced teachers who seem amazing and perfect. And then at some point, there's a disappointment. And I think, actually, my Mariana Caplan, in her book Guru Question, talks about this natural cycle of projection on the teacher, idealization of the teacher, and then disillusionment of the teacher. So I think it's like actually a natural part of the experience maybe. So I don't know it would give you thought...

Meghan Kemp 49:29

Yeah. I mean, what pops into my mind immediately, is the expectations I put onto my mother, and having that as the framework for who I initially learn from and learn life through. And, and then seeing how over time, she's, there's a moment I think, as you grow up, and you become an adult, that you just realize that your parents are human beings, they're just adults who are trying to figure it out, too. And then they're inevitably at some point become A little bit more grace or spaciousness for them and the mistakes they make. And as they learn to grow to, no one is exempt from being a human on this earth. If we're, if we're taking this incarnation as a human, we're going to have human tendencies. And that can happen at all levels. And teachers are no exception. And what their responsibility is, it's always on the student, to be able to, to sit with, to discuss, to move through it. And if it consistently doesn't feel right, and don't learn from that person, or figure out what you can learn what your takeaways are, and leave the rest without feeling the need to glorify that person.

Chad Woodford 50:49

Right. I think it sounds like maybe what you're saying too, is talking about these different phases of the relationship with the teacher. Like, there's also it's also been called the honeymoon period, the fall from grace, and then relationship building. I like that framework, because there's this idea that maybe you do get disappointed, but then eventually, you come back around, just like you would with any, like friendship or romantic relationship. Yes, there's a point where you move past the honeymoon, and then you're in this really the real part of like, actually building the relationship from a healthy standpoint, because I think what you're touching on too, is so much of what happens with a guru, especially as people bring all their residual parental unresolved parental issues. And they're projecting all this stuff, like they want the person to be the mother or the father, and to be or to be their friend. And they have like these, like expectations. And that's got to be, for that reason, so hard to be like a revered teacher or popular teacher. But maybe like, I'm curious to hear what you think, maybe like the process is trying to get through those early stages as fast as you can. And like getting becoming aware of it. Hopefully, the teacher is giving you practices that are giving you the discernment to then, like go through that process, right?

Meghan Kemp 51:59

Yeah, definitely. I think that it's so important to be aware of those stages. I remember reading this book while living at the Academy. And it just opened me up so much, because I was like, oh, everything, you know, everyone has a different relationship with this teacher. And I see the whole spectrum, I see the whole spectrum of how people project or engage with the teacher and teachings. And there's a lot of disillusionment from my lens. But as soon as I saw, oh, I could understand this person is in their honeymoon period. And it can go for years, there's a compassion around that totally, totally. It's like, oh, they're, they're moving in this way. And then I've seen the fall from grace, and what happens and what gets stirred up within us. And then and the people that break off at that point, which is completely reasonable, especially if you're talking about cults. Right. But yeah, the teacher should be able to then have enough of the principles that they're teaching, and from my perspective, that they're living as well. And, and it's been on us as students to see. Okay, I can learn this these elements of life from this teacher, and then these elements I might need to learn elsewhere.

Chad Woodford 53:24

Yeah, and yeah, that's interesting. Yeah. Well raises the question, though, is there? I mean, is it always okay to just be like teacher hopping? Or is there a benefit to like sort of committing, at least for a while?

Meghan Kemp 53:35

I, I mean, we've talked about this, I definitely think there's a benefit to committing at least for a while. And to dig one deep well, versus several shallow wells, however, it's, it's been beneficial to have consistently spent time digging that one deep well, and then dip my toes in other small wells, and see that the information is congruent, and it's consistent, whether that's through jñāna yoga and knowledge or through sitting in Vipassana and hearing the lectures be tangential to what we're studying elsewhere, which is great. And then I think, I've personally gotten to a point where I look and I see, okay, this slice of the pie isn't going to be filled here. So I'm gonna go look for a teacher that can do that. But I'm now realizing I am that teacher, for myself, I have had, I have to then sit with these things and resolve them for me. And then naturally, if there's a teacher that's supposed to teach me that it'll come through and whether that looks like a guru or that looks like a partner of some way, then you learn that, but yes,

Chad Woodford 54:41

maybe. Okay, so maybe at this point, one way to kind of sum up is to I want to talk about maybe some criteria for selecting a teacher or knowing if a teacher is good for you or that kind of thing. This is based primarily on Mariana Caplan's framework from her book, The Guru Question, but I think I modified him a couple of these things, but basically You want to say so this is where the lineage comes into play, like we were talking about? Do you need a teacher who has a lineage? Or do you need to know who the teachers teacher is? Right? I think there's been so much in sort of disagreement about this. But for me, personally, I do think there's a huge benefit to having a lineage. Because if a teacher is self taught, then it's harder to independently verify what they're saying. I mean, you can do what you were saying, I'm ready to go, which is, you can, you can learn from other sources and read ancient scriptures and all that kind of independently verify what the teacher is teaching. And in that way, you're kind of I think everyone should act as sort of sort of like a yoga scientist, like you're, you know, you're being empirical, you're trying things out, you're comparing two different experiments, you know, that kind of thing. So that's so essential. But having said all that, yeah, the teacher's lineage, to me is so important, because you have something to sort of there's, there's like, a, it's backed by the teachers backed by something profound and ancient and time-tested, you know, time tested. I mean, speaking of science and empiricism, you know, if there's a lineage, then these things that have been passed down, have been tested over many generations in linear. And so it can be helpful to have a teacher with a lineage, right? What do you think about that?

Meghan Kemp 56:18

Yeah, my first thought is, if you look at cults, a lot of them don't have any lineage, yeah, they're operating from access to this spiritual knowledge. And there tend to be great orators and can deliver it. But they don't have that anchoring that backing that helps them operate from a non-egocentric place, it gives that foundation from which you can also last them and it and there's this certain respect that you have for the teachings, if you recognize that it's not just from that one individual, that there's a collective that's been studying this over time. And that's what you're a part of, versus just associating yourself with a human or one person.

Chad Woodford 57:01

Yeah. I mean, I have had teachers where they've been hesitant, hesitant to talk too much about their teacher, because I think there was a concern, a legitimate concern, that people would just be too, like, in their heads about his lineage question and not just like, surrendering to the teaching. So there's a balance there, maybe, but it's important. And then so going back to the framework, there's also this question, is the teachers behavior more self serving or egotistical? Or is it more from a place of love and humble service to the students? Right, that's a obviously an important question.

Meghan Kemp 57:31

Definitely, definitely.

Chad Woodford 57:33

As a teacher promoting spiritual growth, or are they sort of undermining people's maturation? And, you know, just trying to get something for themselves? I think that hopefully, that will be pretty obvious, but sometimes it's not, right.

Meghan Kemp 57:45

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, one way that our teacher makes it obvious is that he makes it clear that he doesn't need anyone.

Chad Woodford 57:52

Right. Right.

Meghan Kemp 57:54

Everyone is replaceable. Yeah, including himself. And it's such a great lesson. And it then makes me see how do I want what what is my relationship? What am I choosing to move forward with? In this relationship? Yeah.

Chad Woodford 58:11

There's a there's an important discernment there to find out if the teacher is truly teaching out of the sort of act of selfless service, or there's something else going on, right?

Meghan Kemp 58:20

Yeah. And I think the question for the teacher would be like, Am I replaceable? Or, right? Do you need me here?

Chad Woodford 58:27

Right? Is there? Are there a lot of politics and playing favorites? That can be one, maybe one side, and then and then that kind of brings up like, you were saying a while back, looking at the teachers, student body and the Sangha, the community around the teacher is also a good way to to determine maybe if the teacher is your teacher? Do you resonate with people? Do they seem to be benefiting from the practices? That's another good one. And then, I think the last piece is just to kind of fundamental chemistry, like, some teachers might be really wise, but they might not be for you. You have to resonate with a person personally, I think at some level, you know, one of my teachers is, is really sort of like fierce. And for me, that was like, what I I didn't even realize it at first, but then I later understood that that's what I needed was what I was looking for somebody to kind of like really cut through any BS. Yeah, but then it might not be for everybody. Somebody might need a very gentle, loving, compassionate teacher.

Meghan Kemp 59:28

Absolutely. Yeah, I have found that I really resonate with teachings like Ram Dass his teachings and through Neem Karoli Baba because they are so heart centered. And that lands so well with me. And I can take in that information in ways that other teachers don't address it or there is a fundamental shared love, but it's expressed in unique ways. Yeah, and it's like what we've said like, you know, Ya know, like that, that cutting through or that warm embrace? It feels right? It feels like I think I need more of

Chad Woodford 1:00:09

Right. Right, right, you have to do you have to really trust your intuition. And so much of the path is, is trusting your intuition. Definitely. And just your with your gut or your heart. Yeah, you're all the all of the above.

Meghan Kemp 1:00:20

And I think sangha definitely is helpful for that, too, because you're going through this together. And if you're in the right sangha, then you are presented with these questions back at you.

Chad Woodford 1:00:32

Yeah. And hopefully, any practice that's holistic, and and diverse enough will have will not be one dimensional. So it'll have within it, you know, all these different things. One aspect of the practice may be heart centered, and another aspect is more fierce or cutting through or whatever. And so yeah, so then it's not just like, it's all or nothing. I mean, you know, so I think, like, what we've studied, you know, software, and all that is pretty diverse, and has that all potentially has all that contained within it. And it gives you the tools, I think to be your own to pretty quickly be your own teacher and to a large extent,

Meghan Kemp 1:01:07

yeah, maybe. And you can also see how that's transpired in many individuals who have come through that place, and how they've adapted the teachings that feel so true to them. And then they share that in the world.

Chad Woodford 1:01:21

Yeah, absolutely. So I think maybe the kind of wrap up this discussion, it seems like a teacher is especially necessary for people who maybe never had anybody in their life who believed in them, you know, like maybe that maybe that was my experience, I think, to a large extent, it probably was somebody who can see your full potential. And then, like we were saying earlier, kind of push you a little bit to step into that can be very healing that way. Absolutely. conclude, maybe allowing, allowing a teacher to do kind of do this work on you like allowing that actually, that kind of surrender, actually, maybe paradoxically, increases your freedom. So if you surrender to that process, and let go of control a little bit, then you ultimately experience more personal freedom as a result, wouldn't you say?

Meghan Kemp 1:02:11

Yeah, I would, and you experience freedom and joy, and, and the ability to flow with life with greater ease when you have someone that's helping guide you along the way, because it just it quickens the process of growth, you're inevitably at some point going to experience that freedom. But now you can do it with more ease. More grace.

Chad Woodford 1:02:41

Yeah. Yeah.

I wanted to just come back to spiritual community, how important it is. Because you've mentioned a few times the importance of Sangha. And we've talked about it, yeah. But you know, it's tricky to because I'm reminded of this quote from Mariana Caplan, once again, who's amazing, there are two mistakes you can make in relationship to the washroom or to spiritual community. One: not staying long enough. Two: staying too long. So, think we've all had this experience experience. And so I guess, you know, in terms of like, spiritual, spiritual community, and people who are in community, I think there can be in my experience, it can be this sort of conformity, like people can be like conformist within spirituality, and just following blindly other people or the teacher or whatever it is. And so it's like, I don't know, how do you approach that challenge? Yeah, that's compassion. Maybe what you were saying...

Meghan Kemp 1:04:10

It is, it's ultimately understanding that everyone has their own path. And that some people are going to recognize it's time to depart leave it living in that community. In their own time, and like a time I don't want to say anything like derogatory but find that they're, they're ready to go. And that means they're ready to go versus it being expected that other people should be ready to go at that same time. And within that, or maybe it's time to leave earlier than expected and that's, that's right for them too. But it is important to leave that and

Chad Woodford 1:04:54

A lot of teachers will send you away and say you need to go back into the real world.

Meghan Kemp 1:04:58

Yeah, right. And speaking from being back, away from that life for the past year, I've grown and learned so much in my day to day life that was the life or it was the environment that I lived in prior to being in on a spiritual path in a deep way. And it's this integrative quality that makes the teachings and practice so much more relevant and applicable, when you're in your car or when you're in the grocery store. versus when you're only living in that community. It's much harder to have compassion for strangers, because you are with those same people all the time, right? You can have a bubble It is about, it's definitely a bubble. And it's a beautiful bubble for healing to take place in, right? Totally. Men's healing can happen in a short amount of time being in a supportive environment like that. But it can also be a lot of stagnation that can occur to when it's when life isn't when you're not engaging in life. In the world outside of that bubble.

Chad Woodford 1:06:06

Yeah, I think it's I feel like Sangha or spiritual community is such a double edged sword, right? You really need it. And it's so important to support you in your process of going through evolution and, and liberation and all that. But it can also be tricky, because you can get so easily pulled into, I don't know unnecessary drama or you know, humaneness, humaneness or whatever. Yeah, and I think compassion is so important. It reminds me of a big mistake I made when I was first kind of approaching a spiritual community was, I expected, because people had been there for so long and practicing. I expected everyone to kind of be like, these, like spiritual beings of light, you know, just floating around, like foot off the ground, you know? And they were like, the opposite. You know, everyone seemed like, kind of a mess. And I was like, Oh, my God, this place is the worst, like, what am I even doing here? And it was like, such a wrong approach, you know, because there was no compassion, and it was lack of understanding that, like, you're saying everyone's on their own path, and they own their own point on the journey, and doing the best they can. And yeah, you just need to accept everyone for who they are. And if they were, we can talk about enlightenment in a minute. But you know, if they were truly enlightened, whatever that means, then they probably wouldn't even be there. You know, first of all, so yeah, you know, it's it's so important, I think, to just focus on your own growth, your own development, and then to stop looking for somebody to serve like as a role model to maybe, but to just be your own sort of like guiding light in some cases.

Meghan Kemp 1:07:32

Yeah. And I think it takes the detachment from those places to find that inner light right to to witness yourself responding versus reacting environments, in situations that you work 100% would have reacted poorly and rise. friendlies are a perfect place an example for

Chad Woodford 1:07:51

And what did Ram Dass say? If you think you're enlightened...

Meghan Kemp 1:07:54

spend a week with your family? Yeah, definitely. That's being closer to family, after being in community I think is such a natural for me, it was a natural progression, because I wanted to apply those lessons in real time, and see where there's still plenty of work to be done.

Chad Woodford 1:08:15

Yeah, that's my excuse to get to the point, I think on the spiritual path, where then you start to welcome new challenges and new opportunities for being triggered or for being put into a process or whatever it is, then you face the turn and face that, you know, I like Pema Chodron, she, her whole thing is like turning towards the pain or turning towards the growth, you know, intentionally. So yeah, that's beautiful. But so in terms of enlightenment, though, I feel like this is a concept that we could talk about for an hour, but also is so misunderstood. I'm curious how you think about enlightenment or what that means for you.

Meghan Kemp 1:08:48

I love what it says about living enlightenment. And that, through experiences, and journeys and soft foam in meditation, in conversation, you can have these points of connect, like, transcendent experiences where you are touching and being in an enlightened state, where you were not stuck or attached to the regressive behaviors, tendencies latent qualities of life and you are just a tuned to something so much greater, higher, and that's just flowing through you. And those things can happen. Where you're deep in a space and you taste enlightenment, and you touch it or you experience it. You're visualizing what it is to be enlightened, and then you come back and then you keep going through life with that, that remembrance that, that memory of it, and, and it's it's so sweet. It's so nice. It's it's Personally, I have found through several practices I've, I've experienced the state beyond death, I've gone to what it's like, beyond what I know is life right now. And, and it's, it's beautiful. It's easy. It's just, it's that and like that that was an experience of enlightenment in that moment. Yeah. And here I am today, you know, just like right through life. So I'm not I'm not it's not a static, it's not static. And it's not an end goal it can be to happen to more and more, and I think the frequency of it can be increased, and the access of it also is increased as you stay diligent in the practice.

Chad Woodford 1:10:46

Yeah. So you're talking about it kind of like another way of talking about the state of yoga or the state of unity? Yeah, it's a state of unity, in a sense.

Meghan Kemp 1:10:53

Yeah. Yeah.

Chad Woodford 1:10:53

I think it's so tricky, because I feel like so many people think that it's some kind of end state or some kind of goal to achieve. And that you have to get there as fast as you can. I think that's what oftentimes results in spiritual bypass and spiritual ego, because you are like, Okay, I've got the concepts. Now, I'm going to, like, take the Type A, you know, Western, American approach, and just, like, work hard and try to get there as fast as I can. And, and...

Meghan Kemp 1:11:19

...it only happens when you surrender...

Chad Woodford 1:11:20

right? Well, yeah, that's true. And there's no, there's always in the greater states of enlightenment, right? So because the word itself just means like, greater light, more light. So you're always achieving greater light. And it's not like you get to a point where you can just like rest, and I guess, I don't know where you'd be anyways, to be on the beach drinking Mai Tais. I don't know what it looks like. Right? So yeah, that's important to remember. And,

Meghan Kemp 1:11:44

and everyone can experience it. Yeah, everyone has the ability to be enlightened in this way.

Chad Woodford 1:11:51

Right. But don't lose like, Don't lose yourself in in

Meghan Kemp 1:11:55

trying to accomplish it. Right.

Chad Woodford 1:11:57

And like rejecting the present moment, because oh, I'm not enlightened.

Meghan Kemp 1:12:00

Right? And also,

Chad Woodford 1:12:01

it brings up this question I've had for a long time of, you know, you hear a lot, especially from Buddhists about wanting to "escape the cycle of birth and death." And which always makes me a little sad, because it sounds like a person who's kind of depressed or like, doesn't love their life, because I'm thinking, why would you want to escape this amazing life? And then what like, what does that mean? You're like, annihilated, you know, I don't know, I like the idea that you're, like, I think the yoga practice, hopefully, is giving you the ability to celebrate life and to really enjoy life. And so I'm curious, you know, when you hear like, the definite goal to escape the cycle of birth and death, what does that mean for you? The big question, yeah.

Meghan Kemp 1:12:43

So I love the concept of Boddhisattvas that somebody who comes back, someone who has reached enlightenment, according to that perspective of it, and chooses to come back and be of service to other humans are beings to get closer to enlightenment. And, and I love the idea too, that we all have that potential within us to become the Bodhisattva. And the only way we can get there is through this, this life and conscious action. And when when we think about birth lifecycle, and all that it so people can get caught in the semantics of it. Because all they have a knowledge is of this life and thinking that something's greater over there. But really, all we ever have is now. Yeah, and this soul is experiencing now right now. So make the most of it right now. Right? And that includes being cognizant of what's happening around you right now, too, and not not turning a blind eye to suffering that is occurring, even if you're in bliss, right? And how that bliss can naturally be of service through various channels to the suffering that is also simultaneously happening.

Chad Woodford 1:14:11

Yeah, because everything is, according to the Upanishads, everything is simultaneously an illusion, and the most real at the same time. And so I think that's a good reminder, because I've heard so many people who consider themselves spiritual. I've heard them say things like, Well, you know, nothing's real. So you know, whatever. Yeah. And it's like, it's a convenient way to kind of check out but it denies the absolute suffering that's happening, you know, for people in the world. Yeah. You know, that's the sufferings real because it hurts. Yeah. It's not like, Oh, it's that your pain is an illusion. You can't tell? Yeah,

Meghan Kemp 1:14:45

right. It's like, this is all an illusion. Okay, like, hit me in the face. Yeah,

Chad Woodford 1:14:53

yeah. So I think, I think, you know, I think maybe this idea of escaping the cycle of birth and death. I don't know the answer, but I think maybe that idea might have partially come in through, like the influence of the west on Buddhism or on Eastern mysticism. And the idea maybe like, is related back to the Christian idea of heaven, and hell, you know, or, like, you need to escape from hell into heaven, you know, and there's there isn't like you were saying a minute ago, there's no other place to go to, you know, there's just here and now, no matter what level you're at, or whatever, and so maybe escaping the cycle of birth and death is more escaping the idea that we ever die, you know, that kind of thing. So I don't know, who knows, these are just fun things to talk about. Definitely.

Meghan Kemp 1:15:37

How many more lives you got?

Chad Woodford 1:15:42

Three.

Earlier you mentioned Jyotish. Yeah. And I wanted to spend a little time on that before we wrap up. This is something that you and I both study. This is Vedic Astrology. And so it's astrology from the Yog-Vedantic tradition. And we both love it. And so maybe you could talk a little bit about you know, how you view astrology and what you love about it and how what your experiences experience has been as a Jyotishi.

Meghan Kemp 1:16:19

Yeah. So talk about spiritual bypassing. I think it's been so popularized and knowing the sun moon rising sign in western astrology, and I was honestly turned off by that, that kind of sensationalism, and it just didn't feel grounded enough, yes, it felt accurate to some extent that I didn't feel a call to dive deeper into it. And so going into vedic astrology and studying that was really my first deep soiree with astrology in general, and having the foundation of these Yog-Vedantic studies, to build upon through the science of light, and really like the math and stars and celestial bodies, to help understand humanity and consciousness. And the most beautiful thing that I've seen, in my experience, my brief experience with it has just been the ability to recognize that, oh, this, this isn't my fault. In a way, this is just what I'm likely to experience more of more challenges of, or more ease and over and over and over, because of the variables at the time that I took my first breath in this body. And within that, there's this great spaciousness that happens, because you can see life from a broader lens and see that this life is an opportunity to move beyond our karma and move into a more dharmic state of living, and living life with great intention and purpose and mastery, and to essentially be of greater service and ease to all and this is universal. And so to be able to share this insight with other people and to help them see life from that broader context is just a blessing. But I, I have not intimately experienced with Western astrology. So I can't say one thing or another about it. But with Vedic, and the tools and technologies that you can apply in real time to help ease the suffering for anybody is just magnificent.

Chad Woodford 1:18:37

Yeah, it's really beautiful in that way. So I think maybe it's important to highlight you mentioned karma. And so one way to kind of you to view Vedic Astrology or any astrology really, is that it's a way of getting a snapshot of your karma. And so when we say that, I think it's important to remind people that I think there's a misconception that karma is sort of something that you're like, laden with, and almost maybe is a little bit too deterministic, but it's not right. So karma is something that we know from our yoga practice, and our yoga studies, is something that you it is an influence on your life. And it is sort of something that you have to grapple with. But because you have access to especially if you're have access to yoga, you know, there's these technologies, there's these practices, there's these things you can do to burn through your karma to become aware of it to stop generating more karma. And so a lot of what astrology is doing is helping you with that process, right?

Meghan Kemp 1:19:30

Absolutely. Yeah. And it gives you practical tools that you can apply today. As soon as you start to realize what it is that you want to remedy in your life. There's a technology for it.

Chad Woodford 1:19:44

Yeah, yeah. astrology is so life-affirming for me in that way. Like it's very supportive of you realizing your full potential. Definitely, it's almost like it's serving the role in a way of what we were saying earlier is the role of the guru or the teacher is seeing the potential in you. So the astrologers helping you See the potential, and then giving you tools to realize that potential. What I love about Vedic Astrology too. In addition, everything you were saying is that the Vedic Astrology offers these, it connects back to the yoga tradition. So it's all very integrated and whole and whole. So it gives you these yoga practices you can do. And we're not just talking about Asana, right, but we're talking about mantra, or kriya, or devotional practices, all that stuff, it gives you all these tools to then address the imbalances or the karmic challenges that are highlighted in the chart. Right. So that's, that's one thing I really love about giving readings from a Vedic perspective is that you have these ways of working with the energies. Yeah,

Meghan Kemp 1:20:43

definitely. Yeah. Energy at play.

Chad Woodford 1:20:46

Yeah. Yeah. So I think we've probably talked long enough about yoga, and astrology and all the things it was fun, though. Yeah. So when we did this, you know,

Meghan Kemp 1:20:57

yeah, yeah. having me on.

Chad Woodford 1:20:59

Yeah. I want to do more of these discussions and not just having been me talking all the time. Because, right. Like, it's all for me and everybody else. Yeah. So. So yeah. So how can people find you?

Meghan Kemp 1:21:12

If you want to get in touch then you can find me at my website, meghankemp.com and on Instagram at @meghan_kemp. And I love teaching one-on-ones, I love offering Vedic chart readings. I love working with groups. Basically, having conversations like this also feeds my soul. So if anything has piqued interest and you want to connect, I'm here.

Chad Woodford 1:21:40

Great. Yeah. And I will say I've experienced Meghan's classes and her teachings and she's a great teacher and astrologer. So it's been so good to have you on the show.

Meghan Kemp 1:21:48

Thanks, Chad. And thanks for having me.

Chad Woodford 1:21:50

You're also a talented designer. I don't know if you want to talk about that. Thank you. Yeah. multitalented?

Meghan Kemp 1:21:55

It's like the yoga practice gives us

Chad Woodford 1:21:58

access to infinite creativity. Exactly. Yeah. Well, thank you. Any parting thoughts?

Meghan Kemp 1:22:06

Om Shanti Shanti Shanti. Hari Om Tat Sat

Chad Woodford 1:22:11

All right. Thank you.